在人們的描繪中，硅谷往往是個(gè)對(duì)女性充滿敵意的地方。不過科技公司已經(jīng)開始帶頭改善帶薪休假政策。就此而言，為所有員工提供4個(gè)月帶薪假期的Facebook走在了最前端，而雪莉·桑德伯格在其中發(fā)揮了不小的作用。這位首席運(yùn)營(yíng)官和《向前一步》（Lean In）的作者成為了聯(lián)邦政府帶薪休假政策的公開支持者。

《財(cái)富》與桑德伯格就如何讓其他美國(guó)公司效仿Facebook的話題進(jìn)行了交流。下文是經(jīng)過編輯的對(duì)話摘錄。

《財(cái)富》：您公開就帶薪休假的問題發(fā)表了看法，并表示需要聯(lián)邦政府出臺(tái)相應(yīng)政策。您和Facebook為了推動(dòng)這種趨勢(shì)，做了哪些努力？

雪莉·桑德伯格：我個(gè)人很支持家庭法案（它會(huì)讓聯(lián)邦政府強(qiáng)制執(zhí)行帶薪休假政策）。我希望看到聯(lián)邦層面通過立法，而國(guó)內(nèi)有很多好的活動(dòng)在讓人們得到所需的幫助。商業(yè)領(lǐng)袖有責(zé)任推動(dòng)合適的公共政策出臺(tái)。不過在（帶薪休假）法案尚未得到通過的環(huán)境下，（我們需要）采取力所能及的措施。我們有責(zé)任在公司內(nèi)部推行政策，樹立正確的榜樣。

有了政策還不夠，你還要推行它。我很自豪，馬克（扎克伯格）休了陪產(chǎn)假，樹立了好的榜樣。我們的首席技術(shù)官休了陪產(chǎn)假，我們的首席產(chǎn)品官也休了。我們需要反對(duì)的重要觀念之一，就是生產(chǎn)僅與女性有關(guān)。這是個(gè)家庭問題，如果我們希望母親與父親在家庭中擁有平等的地位，一開始就需要保持平等。這就是平等的陪產(chǎn)假為何如此重要。我們?yōu)殡p方（母親和父親）都提供了4個(gè)月的假期，鼓勵(lì)員工去休。我們發(fā)現(xiàn)的另一件事在于，如何推行政策有很大的靈活度。第一年執(zhí)行政策時(shí)，我們提供的是4個(gè)月假期。這確實(shí)提高了參與度，尤其是在男性員工當(dāng)中。

Facebook為男性和女性提供了慷慨的帶薪休假政策，但大部分美國(guó)人——87%——享受不了任何這類待遇。如果沒有聯(lián)邦政策，如何才能更好地讓美國(guó)公司加入你們的行列？

這個(gè)數(shù)據(jù)令人震驚：3,700萬人沒有病假，包括60%的低收入工人。只有14%的人擁有受探親假。三分之一的母親無法享受帶薪產(chǎn)假。你希望做正確的事情，而它就是正確的事情。不過，我認(rèn)為公司如果了解到這對(duì)他們自身而言也是個(gè)明智的做法，他們就會(huì)去做的。如果你在員工需要的時(shí)候給予他們關(guān)懷，就能贏得他們的忠誠(chéng)，而擁有優(yōu)秀的員工是取得成功最關(guān)鍵的要素。

這不是權(quán)衡。這不是在實(shí)現(xiàn)商業(yè)目標(biāo)和實(shí)現(xiàn)關(guān)心員工的目標(biāo)上進(jìn)行權(quán)衡。你關(guān)心你的員工嗎？如果是，那你就能實(shí)現(xiàn)商業(yè)目標(biāo)。我認(rèn)為，我們需要確保人們不需要在個(gè)人責(zé)任和職業(yè)責(zé)任之間進(jìn)行權(quán)衡。

給我?guī)韽?qiáng)烈感觸的另一件事是喪假。甚至在我失去丈夫之前，我們就有很棒的相關(guān)政策，但我們進(jìn)一步擴(kuò)大了它的適用范圍。對(duì)于直系親屬，我們?nèi)缃駮?huì)給予20天喪假，對(duì)于旁系親屬則是10天。許多公司效仿了我們。實(shí)際上，這個(gè)（月），芝加哥大學(xué)（University of Chicago）就這么做了，這很重要。他們是第一家（擁有喪假政策的）大學(xué)。

許多有關(guān)帶薪家庭假的社會(huì)活動(dòng)都是在Facebook上組織的。與此同時(shí)，公司在政治上扮演的角色近來引發(fā)了熱議。在您看來，F(xiàn)acebook是否仍是可供選用的社會(huì)活動(dòng)工具？

我認(rèn)為這是組織活動(dòng)的一個(gè)重要工具。Parkland游行（反槍支游行March for Our Lives）就是在Facebook上組織的?！昂谌说拿彩敲保˙lack Lives Matter）也有一些游行是在Facebook上組織的。Facebook是人們溝通的重要途徑，我們也對(duì)Facebook在社會(huì)活動(dòng)上扮演的角色感到自豪。女權(quán)運(yùn)動(dòng)Women’s March就是（來自）一個(gè)女性（在Facebook上）發(fā)的帖子。她表示：“如果人們游行會(huì)怎么樣？”第二天早上她醒過來，游行就開始了。這并不意味著我們會(huì)不加甄別地希望各種事件都在Facebook上發(fā)生——我們正在采取強(qiáng)力的措施糾正這一點(diǎn)——不過作為人們組織活動(dòng)的工具，F(xiàn)acebook影響力巨大。

數(shù)據(jù)分析公司Cambridge Analytica的信息濫用引發(fā)了許多爭(zhēng)議，一些人可能會(huì)對(duì)繼續(xù)使用Facebook這個(gè)平臺(tái)保持警惕。用戶應(yīng)該對(duì)Facebook未來應(yīng)該怎樣作為推動(dòng)政策進(jìn)步的工具，公眾對(duì)此應(yīng)該有什么了解？

我們?cè)?015年禁止了Cambridge Analytica那種使用數(shù)據(jù)的方式。那種用法已經(jīng)不再存在。自那以后，我們又采取了許多措施，阻止其他可能出現(xiàn)的數(shù)據(jù)濫用情況。人們會(huì)繼續(xù)使用Facebook，因?yàn)镕acebook會(huì)繼續(xù)成為人們交往和溝通的途徑之一。（財(cái)富中文網(wǎng)）

本文的另一個(gè)版本登載于《財(cái)富》2018年5月1日刊，標(biāo)題為“雪莉·桑德伯格：帶薪假期‘并非出于權(quán)衡’”。

Silicon Valley is often described as a hostile place for women. Yet tech companies are leading the charge when it comes to progressive paid leave policies. Facebook—which offers four months of leave to all employees—is a leader in this regard, thanks in no small part to Sheryl Sandberg. The chief operating officer and Lean In author has emerged as a vocal proponent of a federal paid leave policy.

Fortune spoke with Sandberg about how to get the rest of corporate America to follow Facebook’s lead. Edited excerpts follow.

Fortune: You’ve spoken up about the issue of paid leave and the need for a federal policy. What are you and Facebook doing to keep rolling that ball forward?

Sheryl Sandberg: I’m personally supporting the FAMILY Act [which would establish federally mandated paid leave]. I’d like to see legislation pass at the federal level, and there’s a lot of good activity at state levels that gets people the coverage they need. Business leaders have a responsibility to push for the right public policy. But in this environment where these [paid leave] bills are not passing, [we need] to take the steps we can take. We are responsible for the policies for our companies and also for setting the right example.

It’s not enough to have the policies, you also have to use them. I’m really proud that Mark [Zuckerberg] took paternity leave. He sets the right example. Our CTO took paternity leave, our chief product officer took paternity leave. One of the most important things we need to fight is the idea that this is a female issue. This is an issue for families and if we want mothers and fathers to be equal parents in the households, we need to start out equal. And that’s why equal paternity leave is so important. We give four months to both [mother and fathers] and we really encourage people to take it. Another thing we found is that flexibility in how you take the policies works. We offer four months over the course of the first year. And that really increases participation, especially amongst men.

Facebook has a generous paid leave policy for men and women, but the vast majority of Americans—87%—don’t have access to any form of leave. In absence of a federal policy, what’s the best way to get corporate America on board?

The numbers are astounding: 37 million people get no sick days. And that applies to 6 in 10 lower-income workers. Only 14% of people have access to paid family leave at work. A third of working mothers don’t have access to any paid leave. You want to do the right thing because it’s the right thing, but I think if businesses understand that it’s also the smart thing for them, they will do it. If you take care of your employees when they most need it, they are most loyal—and having great employees is most critical to success.

These are not trade-offs. This is not a trade-off between your business goals and your goals of taking care of your people. You take care of your people? You meet your business goals. And I think we need to make sure that people aren’t making trade-offs between taking care of their personal responsibilities and professional responsibilities.

Another thing I feel really strongly about is bereavement leave. We had really good policies even before I lost my husband, but we extended them. We’re now at 20 days for immediate family, 10 days for extended family. A lot of companies have stepped up. And actually, this [month], the University of Chicago did it, which is really big. They are the first university to [have a bereavement leave policy].

A lot of organizing around paid family leave has happened on Facebook this year. Meanwhile, the company’s role in politics has been taking a lot of heat lately. Do you still see Facebook as a viable tool for activism?

I think it’s a critical tool to organize around issues. A bunch of the Parkland March [for Our Lives] was just organized on Facebook. Some of Black Lives Matter was organized on Facebook. Facebook is a critical way that people communicate and we’re really proud of the role Facebook plays in social mobilization. The Women’s March was [born from] a [Facebook] post a woman did. She said, ‘What if people march?’ She woke up the next day and there was a Women’s March. That doesn’t mean there haven’t been things on Facebook that we don’t want to have happen on Facebook—and we’re taking strong steps to correct that—but as an organizing tool for people who are trying to reach communities, it’s huge.

Because of the controversy surrounding data analytics firm Cambridge Analytica’s misuse of information, some people may be wary of continuing to use the platform as before. What should users know about the future of Facebook as a tool to push policy changes forward?

The specific use case that allowed Cambridge Analytica was shut down in 2015. That use case no longer exists and we’ve taken a lot of steps since then to shut down other possible use cases for data to be misused. People continue to use Facebook because Facebook continues to be a way to reach out and connect with people.

A version of this article appears in the May 1, 2018 issue of Fortune with the headline “Sheryl Sandberg: Paid Leave ‘Is Not a Tradeoff.’”