近日，Hyperloop One在內(nèi)華達(dá)沙漠的測(cè)試跑道上獲得成功，聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人舍爾文·皮謝爾談起時(shí)總愛(ài)自比萊特兄弟。初創(chuàng)公司Hyperloop One總部位于洛杉磯。內(nèi)華達(dá)測(cè)試中，采用空氣動(dòng)力學(xué)原理的XP-1客艙在減壓管道內(nèi)時(shí)速接近200英里，幾乎達(dá)到5月全面測(cè)試時(shí)速度的三倍。最終目標(biāo)是接近聲速，即時(shí)速約700英里，從而實(shí)現(xiàn)出行更快速、更清潔也更經(jīng)濟(jì)。

目前其測(cè)試跑道在美國(guó)是第一個(gè)，不過(guò)超級(jí)高鐵的創(chuàng)意真正出處是特斯拉兼SpaceX首席執(zhí)行官埃隆·穆斯克，皮謝爾和另一位聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人喬什·吉格爾只是跟隨者。2013年，穆斯克在一份白皮書(shū)中詳細(xì)描述了真空環(huán)境下利用電磁學(xué)原理搭建超快交通系統(tǒng)的想法，但他表示自己太忙沒(méi)時(shí)間親自去做。此后出現(xiàn)一批超級(jí)高鐵方面的初創(chuàng)公司，其中皮謝爾和聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人喬什·吉格爾走在最前列。

近日《財(cái)富》在紐約市跟皮謝爾，一位從旁協(xié)助公司發(fā)展的投資人，還有首席工程師吉格爾共同探討公司發(fā)展前景，包括“未來(lái)幾個(gè)月”即將進(jìn)行的下一輪測(cè)試。吉格爾表示下次測(cè)試主要為了完善超級(jí)高鐵的氣密設(shè)計(jì)，客艙進(jìn)入和離開(kāi)管道時(shí)更順利。他表示這是整個(gè)項(xiàng)目的核心，關(guān)乎乘客上下車的站臺(tái)設(shè)計(jì)。

吉格爾還表示，目前超級(jí)高鐵速度已能達(dá)到聲速，只是受到內(nèi)華達(dá)DevLoop測(cè)試跑道長(zhǎng)度限制。“如果能再長(zhǎng)2公里，速度就能達(dá)到每小時(shí)700英里了，”他表示。目前Hyperloop One只能在500米長(zhǎng)的賽道上測(cè)試85%的系統(tǒng)。

就在Hyperloop One宣布完成測(cè)試幾天后，彭博社透露穆斯克打算打造自己的超級(jí)高鐵，后來(lái)穆斯克旗下主要做隧道基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施的初創(chuàng)公司The Boring Company也確認(rèn)了，但沒(méi)什么價(jià)值。

在社交媒體Reddit的問(wèn)答中，皮謝爾和吉格爾沒(méi)有回答有關(guān)最新進(jìn)展的問(wèn)題，其他團(tuán)隊(duì)成員也守口如瓶。但從回答中能看出Hyperloop One并未打算放慢發(fā)展步調(diào)。

實(shí)際點(diǎn)看，你覺(jué)得何時(shí)能測(cè)試載人超級(jí)高鐵？

吉格爾：（大笑）可能會(huì)比大家料想中快。

皮謝爾：如果完成測(cè)試，我們會(huì)回來(lái)宣布的，這肯定是我們想做的事。只是現(xiàn)在不方便評(píng)論。

吉格爾：這次測(cè)試時(shí)我們?cè)跍y(cè)試機(jī)器各部位安裝了大概150個(gè)傳感器，所以我們很清楚乘客乘坐的感受。

如果真的有乘客，打算用多少時(shí)速測(cè)試？

吉格爾：目前人們還不關(guān)心時(shí)速，只關(guān)心加速情況，所以我們做了一些測(cè)試，加速G值在2左右。就是說(shuō)速度從零到每小時(shí)60英里只用1秒多點(diǎn)，就像運(yùn)動(dòng)模式吧。

接受CNBC采訪時(shí)你們說(shuō)到超級(jí)高鐵會(huì)成為全世界最便宜的交通方式，那么到底是為誰(shuí)服務(wù)呢？

皮謝爾：?jiǎn)柕煤?。我們希望?shí)現(xiàn)的是最便宜、最快捷也最干凈的公共交通方式。其經(jīng)濟(jì)價(jià)值在于迅速將人們送往目的地，而且由于超級(jí)高鐵不受天氣影響，所以也不會(huì)出現(xiàn)延誤。也就是說(shuō)人們可以隨意選擇居住地，可以是費(fèi)城、華盛頓特區(qū)，也可以在紐約市。人們可以充分散開(kāi)，不用都擠在擁擠的市中心。這樣可以節(jié)省資源，也能提高生產(chǎn)率和效率。

就像紐約2.75美元坐一次的地鐵一樣么？還是跟鐵路價(jià)格差不多？哦，如果光看速度的話估計(jì)跟機(jī)票價(jià)格差不多吧，得幾百上千美元？

皮謝爾：具體的價(jià)格還沒(méi)定，但我們的目標(biāo)是人人都能坐得起，就像西南航空的廉價(jià)機(jī)票一樣。我們想做跨城市交通，所以并非地鐵系統(tǒng)的替代。不管距離是100英里還是300英里，我們會(huì)把路途拆分成一段一段的距離，最終目的是將路費(fèi)降到比機(jī)票和高速鐵路票價(jià)便宜。其他方面跟我們提出的理念有關(guān)，我們稱之為監(jiān)管套利和鄰近補(bǔ)貼。類似的例子是Uber旗下Uber Black和UberX的關(guān)系。Uber Black可以補(bǔ)貼低端版本，包括Uber拼車和UberX，讓價(jià)格更加親民?，F(xiàn)在用Uber拼車的費(fèi)用跟坐公交車差不多。

吉格爾：如果仔細(xì)核算各種交通方式成本會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)，乘客支付的費(fèi)用差不多都是每公里10美分。坐飛機(jī)差不多每公里8美分，具體取決于折扣之類。我們的目標(biāo)價(jià)格標(biāo)準(zhǔn)是10美分左右，跟當(dāng)前市場(chǎng)價(jià)基本持平。

皮謝爾：必須澄清的一點(diǎn)是我們是科技和知識(shí)產(chǎn)權(quán)公司，所以并不會(huì)真正運(yùn)營(yíng)各線路，只想為其他公司打造平臺(tái)。今后我們的技術(shù)可能會(huì)促進(jìn)全球各地成立數(shù)千家企業(yè)。過(guò)程可能要花幾十年。各線路價(jià)格最終會(huì)由本地運(yùn)營(yíng)商根據(jù)當(dāng)?shù)亟?jīng)濟(jì)水平制定。

埃隆·穆斯克在Twitter上宣布，已經(jīng)獲得“政府口頭批準(zhǔn)”建造紐約跟華盛頓特區(qū)之間的超級(jí)高鐵，你們?cè)趺纯矗磕銈冎浪歼@件事么？

吉格爾：當(dāng)天我在測(cè)試場(chǎng)待到凌晨3點(diǎn)半，早上8點(diǎn)接到電話，所以我真不知道他會(huì)宣布什么消息（大笑）。

皮謝爾：我們想做的是地面和地下交通解決方案。穆斯克想做的是隧道交通，所以如果你看看他在TED大會(huì)上的發(fā)言就會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)，他的創(chuàng)意更像有軌電動(dòng)車。應(yīng)用場(chǎng)景會(huì)有很多差別。我們想做超級(jí)高鐵，我們定義的超級(jí)高鐵是指管道中懸浮推進(jìn)，全真空環(huán)境下的空中管道里列車無(wú)阻力前進(jìn)，類似飛機(jī)在20萬(wàn)英尺高空飛行。對(duì)我們來(lái)說(shuō)這才是超級(jí)高鐵，我們也是唯一一家真正投身該領(lǐng)域的公司。隧道交通適合長(zhǎng)途，但并不一定最經(jīng)濟(jì)。但就像我們之前說(shuō)過(guò)的，超級(jí)高鐵實(shí)現(xiàn)起來(lái)可能會(huì)受很多因素影響，也可能有很多應(yīng)用方式。

如果穆斯克真的獲得批準(zhǔn)，你希不希望跟他合作？還是你覺(jué)得你們是競(jìng)爭(zhēng)對(duì)手？

皮謝爾：不一定。如果你開(kāi)了家汽車公司，市場(chǎng)上也有別的汽車公司，你不會(huì)因?yàn)橛懈?jìng)爭(zhēng)對(duì)手存在就停止造車。對(duì)我們來(lái)說(shuō)世界很大，地球這個(gè)星球更是龐大，要搭建基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施還有很長(zhǎng)的路要走。超級(jí)高鐵也屬于公共項(xiàng)目，所以線路營(yíng)造會(huì)出現(xiàn)競(jìng)標(biāo)，但都是很多年以后的事了。真正走下去還需要很多努力。

你們?nèi)绾未_保公司處在領(lǐng)先地位并最終實(shí)現(xiàn)盈利？

吉格爾：我剛看完一本超級(jí)棒的書(shū)，內(nèi)容是萊特兄弟。他們發(fā)明了飛機(jī)，但現(xiàn)在并沒(méi)有萊特兄弟航空公司，好像是因?yàn)樗麄儧](méi)有繼續(xù)創(chuàng)新。所以對(duì)我們來(lái)說(shuō)，一定要持續(xù)創(chuàng)新。這意味著我們要請(qǐng)最優(yōu)秀的人才，不斷打造新產(chǎn)品不斷測(cè)試，拓展可能的極限，因?yàn)閮?yōu)秀的工程師熱愛(ài)創(chuàng)造新產(chǎn)品，而不是僅僅停留在紙面上。我們有機(jī)會(huì)在全世界實(shí)現(xiàn)夢(mèng)想。如果我們停滯不前，那么競(jìng)爭(zhēng)對(duì)手確實(shí)可能會(huì)超越，情況就像20世紀(jì)初100家汽車公司混戰(zhàn)一樣。

皮謝爾：差別在于，市場(chǎng)上只有我們公司在真正努力打造超級(jí)高鐵，證明其可行性。

對(duì)手間的差距總會(huì)慢慢縮小的，是吧？

皮謝爾：是的，但競(jìng)爭(zhēng)是好事。

項(xiàng)目持續(xù)進(jìn)行肯定需要政府的資金。你們?nèi)绾蜗虮镜厣鐓^(qū)解釋競(jìng)標(biāo)政府資金？

皮謝爾：這就變成工作經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)和城市經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)的案例了，我認(rèn)為今后的挑戰(zhàn)更多會(huì)因?yàn)樽詣?dòng)化，一些相關(guān)工作崗位都會(huì)導(dǎo)致較大的社會(huì)和經(jīng)濟(jì)壓力。所以要更多地發(fā)揮技術(shù)的作用，更公平地分配經(jīng)濟(jì)機(jī)會(huì)?？梢阅矛F(xiàn)在的底特律當(dāng)例子，大片土地荒廢著，如果能將底特律跟芝加哥之類大城市連接起來(lái)，可能就會(huì)給底特律帶去很多投資機(jī)會(huì)。

吉格爾：羅馬修路，西班牙造船，英國(guó)鋪鐵路……每次都實(shí)現(xiàn)GDP大幅增長(zhǎng)。通過(guò)交通工具將人們聯(lián)系起來(lái)節(jié)省時(shí)間總會(huì)帶來(lái)新機(jī)會(huì)。

距2028年洛杉磯奧運(yùn)會(huì)還有11年，到時(shí)超級(jí)高鐵能分擔(dān)交通壓力么？

皮謝爾：說(shuō)起來(lái)，之前我們跟洛杉磯奧組委一些負(fù)責(zé)人見(jiàn)過(guò)，當(dāng)時(shí)還在申辦。我們都很激動(dòng)，也聊起了將大洛杉磯地區(qū)的經(jīng)濟(jì)影響力積極擴(kuò)散出去。當(dāng)然了，奧運(yùn)會(huì)期間交通系統(tǒng)的壓力需要想辦法緩解。其實(shí)選擇有兩種，一種是將各種賽事活動(dòng)分散開(kāi)來(lái)，另一種是在城區(qū)集中舉辦。奧運(yùn)會(huì)可以催生很多工作崗位，所以還得到時(shí)候看。現(xiàn)在什么都說(shuō)不定，也什么都可能發(fā)生。

為表述簡(jiǎn)潔，采訪內(nèi)容已經(jīng)過(guò)編輯精簡(jiǎn)。（財(cái)富中文網(wǎng)）

譯者：Charlie

審校：夏林

At least that's the comparison co-founder Shervin Pishevar likes to make when talking about the success his Los Angeles-based startup has had on a test track in the Nevada desert. There, the company's aerodynamic XP-1 pod has traveled down a depressurized tube at nearly 200 miles per hour, which is almost triple the speed it hit during its first full-scale test in May. The goal is to get the pod to fly down the line at the speed of sound—roughly 700 miles per hour—and make way for a faster, cleaner, and cheaper way to travel.

The startup's test track is the first operational hyperloop in the United States, though Pishevar and co-founder Josh Giegel crowdsourced the actual idea from Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk. In 2013, Musk detailed an ultrafast transportation system using electromagnetism in a near-vacuum environment in a white paper that he initially said he was too busy to create himself. A crop of hyperloop startups have since emerged, but Pishevar and co-founder Josh Giegel are at the front of the pack.

Fortune recently caught up with Pishevar, an investor who handles the business side of the company, and chief engineer Giegel in New York City to talk about the company's overall momentum, including the next round of testing set to take place "within the next couple months." Giegel said that the upcoming tests are particularly focused on perfecting the hyperloop's airlock design in order to get pods effectively in and out of the tube. That will be essential, he said, if and when stations are designed to board passengers.

Giegel also claimed that the system is already capable of traveling at supersonic speeds — it's merely restricted by the length of their DevLoop test track in Nevada. "If we were to build out another two kilometers, then we could get up to 700 miles per hour," he said. For now, Hyperloop One's engineers are determined to test 85% of the system on the 500 meters of track they already have.

It's worth nothing that a few days after Hyperloop One announced the news of their second test, Bloomberg revealed Musk's intentions to build his own hyperloop, which The Boring Company — one of Musk's startups focused on tunneling infrastructure — later confirmed.

Pishever and Giegel have not answered questions about this development, nor did any of their team members during a recent Reddit AMA. But the company's answers do indicate that Hyperloop One doesn't have plans to slow down.

When do you realistically expect to be able to test a human being in a pod?

JG: [laughs] Probably sooner than everybody thinks.

SP: We’ll come back to announcements about that, it’s obviously something we definitely want to do. We can’t comment right now.

JG: On this particular test we had something like 150 sensors all over the vehicle, so we know very well what the rider experience would be like inside of the pod.

Do you have any idea what speed you’d want to test with humans inside?

JG: Right now, humans don’t care about speed. They care about the acceleration, so we’ve done a couple different tests where we accelerate around 2 Gs. That’s like zero to 60 in a little over a second, so sport mode.

On CNBC you said that the hyperloop would be the cheapest transportation in the world. Who is that cheap for, exactly?

SP: That’s a great question. What we’re trying to accomplish is the cheapest, fastest, cleanest form of major public transportation. There's economic value in being able to move people and things fast – and without any delays because the hyperloop is impervious to weather. You can live and work anywhere, whether it's in Philly, D.C., New York City. You’ll be able to spread across regions versus being highly-localized into urban centers. It adds up to savings, productivity, and efficiency.

Is this something that costs $2.75 like the subway here in New York? Are they Amtrak-like prices? Or, given similar speeds, are they more like an airline prices in the hundreds or thousands of dollars?

SP: The actual prices are to be decided, but the goal is to get it to be something that’s affordable, more like a Southwest Airlines ticket. You want to be able to move people and things between cities in a way that turns those cities into metro stops, so it’s not a replacement for subway systems. So whether it’s a 100-mile or 300-mile distance, collapsing that into a shorter distance and making it cheaper than airlines and high-speed Amtrak trains is definitely an area we want to go. The other thing has to do with concepts we’ve coined, called regulatory arbitrage and adjacent subsidization. An example of that would be Uber Black and UberX. Uber Black subsidizes the cheaper version — whether it's Uber Pool or UberX — and allows it to be more affordable for people. At the point when you're getting to Uber Pool prices, you're around the price of a bus ticket in the city.

JG: If you look at those modes of transportation, they all come out to be about 10 cents a kilometer — which is what the passenger pays for. On airplanes you might pay eight cents a kilometer, depending on how that goes. But our system target is that 10 cents range because that’s currently what the market is paying.

SP: One thing that is important to clarify is that we are a technology and intellectual property company, so we don’t really want to operate these lines — we want be a platform for other companies. So this should be thousands of companies around the world that get built on top of our technology. This is a multi-decade effort. The pricing is going to be determined by the local economic realities of each of those operators.

What did you think about Elon Musk’s announcement on Twitter saying that he had “verbal government approval" to build a hyperloop between New York and D.C.? Did you have any idea he was going to say anything like that?

JG: I was at a test site until 3:30 a.m. and I got a call at 8 a.m., so I didn’t know he was going to say anything [laughs].

SP: We’re very focused on building overground and underground solutions. What he was talking about was tunneling, so if you look at that and you look at the video from the TED talk, it's very much centered on electric cars on sleds. There’s going to be many different applications. We’re very focused on building the hyperloop. And the hyperloop is exactly something we’ve described as an actual tube with levitation propulsion and a vacuum that essentially vents around sky inside the tube flying at 200,000 feet. That to us is the hyperloop, and we’re the only company building that. Tunneling is for long distances, not necessarily the most economically feasible solution. But like we said, there’s going to be many different form factors and applications of it.

If he did get that approval, would that be something that you would expect or hope to work with him on? Or do you see yourself as competitors?

SP: Not necessarily. If there’s a car company, and you have another car company, you don’t stop building your car and company because there are others. For us, the world’s a very big place, the planet’s very big, and infrastructure takes a long time. These are also public projects, so there will be a bidding process for these routes, all of which are still years away. It’s going to take an incredible effort.

How do you ensure your company stands out and is ultimately profitable?

JG: I just finished a super fascinating book on the Wright Brothers. They're the guys that first did it, but we don’t fly on Wright Brothers airlines. It seems like they kind of just stopped innovating. So for us, we have to continue to innovate. That means we get the best people, we push the boundaries by actually building and testing because good engineers like to build things—they don’t want do it on paper. We also need real world projects, whether it be Dubai or in Europe or the U.S. These give us an opportunity to go and deploy this throughout the world. If we stagnate in terms of what we’re developing, then yeah, those competitors are going to pass us by. There was something like 100 car companies at the turn of the 20th century.

SP: And the difference is, we’re the only company that’s actually building it and proving that it works.

Surely that gap will close at some point, though, right?

SP: Yeah. But competition is a good thing.

This project is almost certainly going to need government money. What do you say to local communities you are competing with for funding?

SP: This is a case study in the economics of work and the economics of cities, and I think we’re moving into an era where the challenges that are going to happen because of automation — the types of jobs that are going to be available — is going to create a lot of societal and economic pressures. You have to be able to bring technology to the forefront and allow economic opportunity to be more equally spread. If you look at Detroit right now as an example, there are vast swaths of Detroit that have been abandoned. If you were able to connect Detroit to places like Chicago, you could potentially bring a lot more economic opportunity investment to it.

JP: Roman roads, Spanish ships, English trains — the whole thing — allowed GDP to shoot through the roof, and by connecting people in that way and by saving time it just continues to allow people new opportunities.

The Olympics are in Los Angeles, 11 years from now. Could hyperloop help the transportation out in any capacity?

SP: Well, early on we met with some of the leaders of the Olympic Committee in L.A. while they were bidding for it. We were incredibly excited, again to the point we were talking about being able to spread the economic impact in a positive way to a wider region of greater Los Angeles. Also, the strains on the transportation systems that are going to happen need to be relieved. But you could have an Olympics that could potentially spread those activities and events to a wider area versus localizing them into downtown areas. And that could create a lot of jobs, so we’ll see. There’s nothing concrete, but you never know.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.